Elena Rossini is an Italian film director, producer, editor and public speaker. Rossini’s most notable film is The Illusionists, a feature-length documentary about consumer culture and the marketing of unattainable beauty ideals around the world. Filming locations included the U.S., U.K., the Netherlands, France, Italy, Lebanon, India and Japan. The film has been featured in Vogue Italy, New York Magazine, Mic, NPR, Fox45 and Teen Vogue, amongst others. Rossini has been taking The Illusionists on tour, showing it at the biggest companies in Silicon Valley (Apple, Facebook, Google, Twitter) and at dozens of schools in the United States and Europe (most recently: Harvard University, University of Chicago, USC, UCLA, UC Berkeley). Emilie (Mimi) Anagli is a cinematographer, AC, and travel junkie. She graduated from Michigan State University in 2021 with a bachelors degree in Film Studies, Professional and Public Writing, and a minor in French. Mimi recently worked as the Multimedia Producer for the Gretchen Whitmer For Governor 2022 campaign before pursuing freelance ACing full-time. She has written for several film and art publications, including agnés films, Made in Shoreditch Magazine, Women in Hollywood, Directed by Women, and Take 2 Indie Review. She is also a Senior Video Editor for the influencer marketing agency Outloud Media. During her time in undergrad, Mimi had the opportunity to attend the 72nd Cannes Film Festival and the 2019 Toronto International Film Festival, where she interned for The Hollywood Reporter. The two worked together on the project, The Power of Visibility. They join Max to talk discuss their experiences as women in the filmmaking industry.
Elena Rossini - Website
Elena Rossini - Twitter
Women and Hollywood - Guest Post: How the World’s Largest Search Engine Can Help Fix Hollywood’s Representation Problem
This is What a Film Director Looks Like
Elena:
Every time that I would present myself as a filmmaker, I would be questioned. And this didn't happen to my male colleagues that were the same age as me. And I gotta say that I experienced that for upwards of like 15, 20 years. So it's been like a daily, almost like humiliation. Nobody believes that I could do this based on how I look or how I present myself. And I hope that for Mimi, who is younger than me, she doesn't have to go for that.
Shervin:
This is On Misogyny, a conversation series exploring sexism and misogyny. Like many men, I have a blind spot when it comes to the female experience, especially as it pertains to the systemic hostility, prejudice, and violence they face on a regular basis. And this has resulted in me believing that I was a better ally than I actually was, and not fully appreciating how little it changed for women and just how much more needed to happen. In each episode, I speak with a guest who wants to help me learn. They share their stories and in doing so, they're teaching me. While I started this project as a personal quest, the lessons here can help others, too. Pleading ignorance is no longer a satisfactory defense. With that, let's begin.
Max:
Hello. Thank you both for joining us. I want to start with Elena. Elena, if you could introduce yourself and, share a little bit about what you do and where you are calling from.
Elena:
Sure. I am an Italian filmmaker and photographer based in Paris, France, and I suppose I'm best known for my documentary, The Illusionists, which is all about the marketing of unattainable beauty ideals around the world. It came out about five years ago, but it's still doing quite well. It's been distributed to hundreds of universities and high schools in the U.S. And I'm really lucky that I often get to do still like Q&A's with students and keep talking about those issues and I'm still involved. Basically all the projects that I do have to do with women or girl empowerment.
Max:
Wonderful. How long have you been in movie making and production?
Elena:
Since 2005.
Max:
Okay, great. And we're also joined by Mimi. Mimi, do you mind introducing yourself?
Mimi:
Yeah, I'm Mimi Analgi. I'm an American freelance video editor, writer, and videographer. I'm a senior video editor for a social media marketing agency, and I write for a couple of feminist film publications as well, doing reviews. I would say in all my professional endeavors, having social justice, activism, and feminism be a core of what I do is like my biggest passion in life. So I'm really excited about this podcast.
Max:
Great, thank you both for being here. Mimi, do you mind sharing how you work with Elena? How did you meet and how you got started, connecting over what you do?
Mimi:
We met through an agency that pairs students with professionals, but at the time I wasn't a student, I had already graduated, but I was still doing this program. So they paired me with her and I chose Paris as my location and the internship was actually supposed to be virtual, but since I had already graduated, I decided to just go to Paris. I got to actually meet Elena and work with her a couple times in person.
Max:
That's great. And Elena, you, you mentioned you got started with this in 2005. What got you into this content and these topics?
Elena:
So film is a combination of all of my passions. I like writing cinematography a little bit of a geek and I got into editing when my parents gave me a camcorder as a present for my graduation from college. I've always really, really loved the power of the moving image. Growing up in Italy, I've always been really sensitive to the issue of sexism because it's a lovely country, but coming of age, in the 1990s, the sexism was so prevalent in the culture and I've always been really passionate about pointing out injustices and things that I perceived to be unfair in the culture. And so I decided to get into film and to use film as a tool to speak about those issues and to speak about gender inequality. I was really lucky recently to collaborate with Mimi. We worked on a short film called The Power of Visibility that shows how a simple change in Google search results can have a monumental impact for women and for people of color working in film. So that's our connection.
Max:
Got it. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? What were some of the things that you discovered or learned or people who watch your work, get exposed to? What don't they know that you're bringing to their attention?
Elena:
Yeah, so I think a common thread throughout my work, not just in The Power of Visibility, but also other projects that I've done in the past, is how women are often really invisible when it comes to mass media or popular culture. And unfortunately there are women like the Kardashians that take up so much space and so much room, you know, culture, but something that has always bothered me is the fact that women that are doing incredible work, whether it's like in science or in engineering or activism, they're really not that well known by the general public. And so that's something that I've always been really passionate about. Bringing forward stories of women that I really admire and that I wish that everybody knew by name. And that was also the inspiration for another project that I did called No Country for Young Women, where I interviewed about 120 women throughout different fields of work. The youngest was a teenager and the oldest was 92. And the only rule that I had was that I wouldn't interview any women working in entertainment, so no actresses or no singers, because I felt that the culture was already giving so much room to them. I mostly interviewed women working in other fields. It's like my number one passion: bringing visibility to women that are often underrepresented and underestimated.
Max:
That's really wonderful. Along that same thread, do you have any personal experiences that you found either validated some of the work that you've been doing or inspired some of the directions that you've gone with the production that you've put together?
Elena:
I think that the spark of inspiration for all those projects was a sense of frustration that I wasn't being taken seriously as a woman working in film. And typically my way of working my modus operandi is if something really bothers me or frustrates me, I like to turn that into a creative project. When it comes to my credibility as a filmmaker, I mean, if I could have gotten a dollar for like every time that I introduced myself as a film director and the person in front of me wouldn't believe me or would ask me, "Oh, do you actually mean you're a film student?"
Wow.
I could have had like a million-dollar budget for a film because it would happen to me almost daily. And it's so funny, like at one of the highest points for me in my career, I had a screening at Harvard university. So Harvard had put together a screening of my film, The Illusionists for hundreds of people. There was a panel discussion with experts, and I was so excited about that. I remember that the screening began and I'd left the room because I'd seen the movie probably 200 times, since I also edited it. And so I left the screening room and I was in the corridor and there were two young men that walked by and I said to them, "My film is screening in that room. If you're interested, it just began." And their immediate reaction was, "Oh, you're an actress." So they couldn't even fathom that I could be the director. So if I said "my film", they instantly thought, I must have been an actor in the film, but they couldn't think of me as a director.
Max:
Thank you for sharing that. It's really discouraging to hear how often this happens and still happens constantly. Mimi, what were some of the things that you've learned in working with Elena, either on this topic, or broadly, that you think are highlights of what direction we need to go with the conversation with men and our society?
Mimi:
I think with Elena, I really found my voice as a filmmaker. I think for so long, I've felt overlooked and overshadowed and like people didn't really wanna hear my voice 'cause it wasn't the voice that I was seeing on screen. With Elena, I think she really empowered me in that way to where I felt confident to share my opinions and share my ideas. I think that can be translated into this overall conversation where it is really important to be thinking about that whenever you're in a space with women and men, to just making sure that you're empowering the people around you and making sure that if they seem like they feel overlooked or overshadowed, making sure that you're opening that space up for them. So that's something that I've always appreciated.
Max:
Beyond this work, Mimi, what else do you think either the industry or audiences broadly can do to further elevate the messages that you're trying to get across?
Mimi:
Well, I think social media is a really powerful thing. Like our film, The Power of Visibility. It's crazy how there are these filmmakers out there, but they're just not known. I think sharing/reposting things from women filmmakers can really elevate their voices, really push their content out there because it's there—it's just not being seen. I think social media could be a great tool for that.
Elena:
Yeah. I agree a hundred percent. I actually created a project on Giphy. If you're not familiar with Giphy, it's the largest directory of animated gifts online and anything that gets uploaded to it by an official channel gets fed onto Twitter and Slack and lot of messaging apps. In 2017, I was noticing how GIFs were becoming really popular online. When I looked up "film director" on Giphy, I was really blown away by the results because they were all men, all Caucasian. And the number one result was a GIF of the filmmaker David Lynch, removing a pair of panties from his mouth.
Max:
Wow.
Elena:
I was putting myself in the shoes of a teenage girl that looks up film director. And I was really appalled by the idea that that was the first thing that she would see, and that she would only see men. So I decided that I would start creating – every day – an animated GIF showcasing a woman in film and all the GIFs had the same style. They all said, "this is what a film director looks like". And then there would be the big name of a female director with their image on it. I began doing this every day. I started in September, and by December, I almost had a hundred animated GIFs and I would always tag Giphy on Twitter. The project caught their attention and they decided to give me an official channel, which means that everything that I uploaded would automatically be discoverable on Twitter or Slack or elsewhere. And what is amazing is that I essentially created a gender gap in results for like film director or cinematographer, because now when you type that you almost only see women because I've done so many. I've almost uploaded 200 GIFs of filmmakers and about 50 of cinematographers. I'm really, really proud of that, but yeah, now it's like skewed the other way. You only see women.
Max:
That's amazing. What other impacts have you seen from your work, both on women or society at large in terms of their relationship with sexism and misogyny?
Elena:
I suppose that the most rewarding feedback that I've gotten, um, has been about The Illusionists, my documentary about body image and attainable beauty ideals, because I've gotten a lot of emails from people all over the world telling me that now they see advertising in a completely different way, that it doesn't have the same effect on them anymore because I expose all of the tricks and techniques used by advertisers to make us feel inadequate about our bodies so that we would buy products. In the film I expose how this is done all over the world. I'm really, really grateful and blessed to have this opportunity, that the film is still out there and being seen by lots of people and it's having an effect. It's an incredible feeling.
Max:
That's great. Where, where can people see this film? Is it online, is it streaming?
Elena:
You can buy or rent the film on the official website of The Illusionists at theillusionist.org. And if you are in the United States and your library or your university belongs to Kanopy, you can watch it for free, for your library or university.
Max:
Oh, that's great. Mimi, as you've gotten involved in this work, from your perspective and being at a different point in your career and the kind of the things that you've seen, where do you see a lot of this work, having a big impact, either on you or the people around you? How is it changing where you think the conversation needs to go? You mentioned the impact in social media; where is this conversation needing to go, to reach the people that need to have it and be part of it?
Mimi:
Yeah. So I guess like on the work that I've done personally, I'm not seeing that huge impact quite yet, the way that Elena is seeing, but it definitely has had a personal impact on me. The more that I get into this kind of work, the more that I get exposed to this like feminist film community that, like three years ago, I didn't even know existed. So that's been super empowering. I've seen a bit of an impact with The Power of Visibility. The fact that we got a guest post with the publication Women and Hollywood, just to know that our film and what we had to say about it resonated with them enough for them to post that, that was really exciting. These conversations are in these feminist publications, but they're not necessarily being highlighted in general publications and things like that. I would say once I'm like hearing these conversations outside of the context of a feminist film publication, outside of the context of International Women's Day and Women's History Month, if I'm seeing that same sort of content outside of a context that is specific to women, that's when I'd be happy with that kind of progress, if that makes sense.
Max:
Yeah, I think seeing more of this conversation in the mainstream is definitely a way that awareness comes up. Elena, I'd like to know from you as you've done this work, and as you've learned about the places that these topics have in the industry—I think about why Shervin initially started this podcast and what we do in these interviews is a little selfish. We understand that there are things as men that we don't know and don't understand, and I'm interested in understanding a little bit more about what you think men don't know about your experience or about your work. What is it that we need to learn and understand more broadly – not having from the perspective of women, what that feels and looks like – what is it that we need to continue learning?
Elena:
Yeah. Um, so as I said before, I think that one of the points that I'm most passionate about is for women to be taken seriously professionally. And I don't know if Mimi has experienced this, but I certainly did when I graduated from college and from graduate school, that again, every time that I would present myself as a filmmaker, I would be questioned. And this didn't happen to my male colleagues that were the same age as me. I gotta say that I experienced that for, I mean, up upwards of like 15, 20 years. So it's been like an almost daily humiliation. Nobody believes that I could do this based on how I look or how I present myself. And I hope that for Mimi who is younger than me, she doesn't have to go through that. I've noticed how the culture has changed considerably. In the last few years, there are more and more female filmmakers getting into the industry and having tremendous opportunities in cinema and in television. So hopefully things are changing. I just hope that young women don't have to go through what I had to go through because I continued, I persisted, but a lot of women my age that were doing the same thing, now they're in completely different fields. Like every time that I go on LinkedIn and I look up some of my colleagues from, 15 years ago, I just see that they're in completely different fields. I hope that they didn't get discouraged because of that. It's sick and an experience, again, that I had daily. I wish for men to know that it's just really, really important that they don't judge other people by their exterior. Don't judge a person, you know, like a book by its cover, essentially. That would be like the number one thing that I'm most passionate about. And it doesn't have just to be about women. I'm sure that, you know, a lot of people of color, gender-non-binary, like a lot of minorities – I hate to use the term minority because for women, we're 50% of the population – but anyone that is not a white man in certain fields might have a really hard time being taken seriously.
Max:
Yeah. I agree. That's really important. I think that's been a big struggle for me even wanting to be proactive with that, but really unlearning so many of the norms and so many of the biases that society teaches men and women through this. You pointed out Mimi being of a bit of a different generation. How has your experience been with that, too? Do you see the same types of things as being the most urgent parts of our culture that you want to see change in? Or are you having a bit of a different experience where you kind of see a different lens around where you think it's affecting you personally, or what stage we're in, or are we making progress, are things getting better? As younger people come into society, what are the other changes that you want to see, to make an impact? What can men or society broadly do differently to make it safer and more encouraging for you?
Mimi:
I think there definitely is progress being made. I think I've experienced that sexism in the workplace to a lesser degree, but I've still experienced it. It takes like one bad experience like that to really discourage somebody. I have this clear memory in college where I told a professor that I was hoping to pursue cinematography. And the first thing he told me was like, "Oh, that equipment is really heavy." Like those cameras are heavy. And I was just like, what are you trying to tell me right now? So I think I've experienced that to a lesser degree. And I think there's that side of things, but there's also this really strong response among women. So while I have experienced that sexism, I've also found a really strong community of women to support me through that. And for men, I think it's really important to understand that just not being sexist isn't enough and kind of like in a similar way that not being racist isn't enough, you know? We're having this conversation about being actively anti-racist and I think it's important to be actively anti-sexist and really supporting women and doing things rather than just being like, "Oh, well, I'm not sexist. So that's enough."
Elena:
And also like something that I would like to point out is that there's a lot of internalized misogyny on women's part as well, because those experiences—I didn't just have them fresh out of college. I also had them as recently as three years ago. I remember going to this event, this like gala event for women in film. All of the people attending were women supporting other women in the industry. A-level, like really, really famous filmmakers. I remember that I wore to that event, a sweatshirt that I created that I designed that said, "This is what a film director looks like." And when I was at the cocktail reception for the event, a woman came up to me and she literally asked me, "What is it that you do?" I mean, after looking me up, she saw the message on the sweatshirt. So I experienced that also, not just from men, but also from other women and even from older women. I think that we have a long way to go when it comes to internalized misogyny.
Max:
That that's a really interesting perspective and story. I think that's something that is a bit of a misnomer or misunderstanding from people when it comes to things like racism and sexism, that it only affects a victimized or marginalized group, and that it only comes from a group in power. It goes in all directions, it's a persistent part of our group in a society. I wonder, have you ever caught yourself in something that you felt like you had to unlearn in terms of how misogyny was shaping the way that you've engaged with the world or you engaged with yourself? And then you kind of had to really, kind of deprogram yourself from that viewpoint or that perspective?
Elena:
As an Italian, you are kind of programmed to always want to make a good impression. So there is, the saying like, you have to "bella figura". And so I think that I always wanted to dress in a certain way that was accentuating my femininity. I discovered that when I would hide, you know, put my hair in a bun, wear glasses, I didn't have those issues of not being taken seriously. Now I always like veer towards that. It's unfortunate to say, but masculine looking clothing, like a blazer and black jeans, and hair in a bun and glasses—I know that when I dress like that, there's no question about my professionalism, which is really sad, in a way. I hope that my daughter doesn't have to go for that.
Max:
Yeah. TIt is discouraging to kind of hear those examples out loud. I do want to continue to be in a world where that sees some change. Elena, what is some of the support that you've seen that have helped you in your career, and who do you wanna recognize or acknowledge that are your inspirations, or you feel like are continuing to further this mission that you're on in your field? Who should people be following or looking out for?
Elena:
To begin with, I have to say that ever since I met Mimi, I got this fire in me of wanting to pursue projects about the visibility of female directors, and our collaboration has been incredible. She's such a talented filmmaker and writer, and I feel that when you meet a kindred spirit, you're so lucky because again, you want to create more and more and put out more things into the world. So Mimi is probably my number one inspiration for continuing down this path. And historically, that would be the French filmmaker that unfortunately passed away a few years ago. Agnès Varda, she was one of the leading filmmakers of the French New Wave, and she turned into an artist when she was in their seventies. So she's been always very prolific when it came to fictional films, documentaries, and then doing photography and art installations. And she essentially worked until she died. She died at 91 or 92. Um, so she's basically my number one inspiration.
Max:
Thank you. And Mimi for you, what are you excited about bringing attention to in the field, and what are some of your additional inspirations – or if you want to talk about how Elena has continued to inspire you as well – what do you want to share around what drives you?
Mimi:
I would say my inspirations are the exact same that Elena just shared. Elena has been a huge inspiration for me. I've never had so much drive in me to create, and it's just a really exciting professional partnership to have. And then of course, Agnès Varda. She's a filmmaker that we both bonded on at the beginning. Agnès Varda is definitely one of my biggest inspirations, just how bold she is as a filmmaker. and ow, you know, I feel like society has told us as women to be quiet and agreeable, and she's just done the opposite of that and created such amazing work. The future, I'm just hoping to continue the kind of work that I'm doing now and hopefully bringing it into different avenues of film instead of like, just a very specific community of feminist filmmaking. I'm hoping to bring it into like a more widespread avenue.
Max:
Great. Thank you for sharing that. And I'll make sure to put links on the webpage for some of these folks, and where you can find more of their work. Is there anything you're looking forward to working on or any projects or ideas that you're excited to be a part of that you can share with us, Mimi?
Mimi:
I am back in the states right now, I'm working on a political campaign doing photos and videos. Uh, that's about as much as I can talk about. But that's been a really exciting thing. It's very different and new from anything that I've done before. So far, I've been learning an insane amount, so excited to continue that.
Max:
Wonderful. And Elena for you, is there, is there a project that you're excited about working on or that you can speak to that's down the line, or do you have any big or crazy ideas of what you want to see in the future around this topic, or a dream project or anything that you see as continuing to further these conversations?
Elena:
Sure. Um, so I'm now working on the sequel of The Illusionists, which is called The Realists. That's all about the impact of social media and technology on people's self esteem and self image, because that was the number one topic that would always come up when I would do Q&A's. With Mimi, I hope that we're going to have more opportunities to continue the work for The Power of Visibility. That short film was only about the Google search results, when one looks up filmmaker, film director, producer, screenwriter. But we could actually expand it to other fields because unfortunately when you look up CEOs or other professions, there is a tendency to only see results of white men in positions of power. And I hope that we're gonna have the opportunity to do little sequels of The Power of Visibility, showcasing other professions as well.
Max:
Yeah. That the visibility piece of the things that we see and things that children see as they start seeing the world, that example and the representation, I think can make it such a huge difference on shaping what our expectations are. Not only for future generations, but even for us and what we see, and seeing more people represented in more areas. Is there anything else, Elena, that you want to share before we wrap up, around your work or where to find the work that you do and you and Mimi are collaborating on, that our audience can follow up with?
Elena:
Sure. So, um, the project that I did with Mimi, The Power of Visibility, you can see on my website elenarossini.com, and you can discover links to other works that I've done from my website.
Max:
And Mimi, where can people find your work and any place that you exist online or in social media that you'd like folks to find you?
Mimi:
Yeah. Um, all of my work can be found on my website, emilieanagli.com and Emily is spelled the French way, so E M I L I E.
Max:
Wonderful. Thank you both so much for your time today and for sharing your stories and about some of the work you do. I'm personally super excited to, to take a look at it and watch some of the things you've put together and looking forward to learning more. I appreciate it.
Mimi:
Thank you.
Elena:
Thank you so much.